iomtoday: the online debate 15/10/08
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11:12
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iomtoday: Hi and welcome to
the online debate on the future for offshore banking. This forum will
be open between lunchtime and 5pm as a platform for
views on the future of offshore banking. Today's Radio 4 show You and Yours
is set to discuss the issue between midday and 1pm and posts can be added
throughout.
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12:02
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[Comment
From Darren Johnston]
I am a UK resident with a savings
account in IOM, I pay taxes on this in the UK, like any other british
saver. Why are we being left out in the cold, by the british government and
not being protected like any other british saver. Especially when it looks
that the UK government were responsible
for Kaupthing's collapse in the Isle of Man , when it froze the UK
Kaupthing assets. As I have said before, the UK government are treating us
like a colony of lepers, and it will be the downfall of the Isle of Man as a financial centre if
depositors see the island as unsafe. Maybe that is what the UK government want
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12:20
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[Comment
From Offshore Saver]
Have just listened to this, main point is that people are mainly putting cash
with subsidiaries of Uk or Irish banks. Depositor
compensation is in itself paid for by the banks and if there is a knock on
effect from a liquidation only those banks that are systemic to a large
economy ar that have assets proportianate to their home economies size will
survive
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12:34
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[Comment
From Davec]
I think the main problem lays with the systemic isolation of the Icelandic
Banking system. The collapse of this micro economy and its high interest
rates attracted many investors looking for more and more profits. Greed led
to the collapse and the smaller the banking system the greater the affect.
The millions invested in these Icelandic banks do not have the same rights or
compensation cover that the Isle of Man has, basically those people
invested in an insecure enviroment with an increased risk for higher gain.
But then againI don't think that anyone suspected that the collapse of the
Icelandic banking system would ever happen. The real question is why the UK
Government didn't do more to help the Icelandic Government, do they know more
than they are letting on?
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12:35
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[Comment
From Lou Huckvale]
Perhaps people living in the UK are unaware of the huge
fraternity of expatriate citizens who work in foreign lands performing a host
of different jos and roles. Many will be teachers, charity workers, oil
workers, engineering, building specialists, IT and many more. These folk
often live in arduous situations and could not be described as 'fat cats' or
of dodgy means - but this is all too often a commonly held view from home.
Just trawling through the 'My Stories' forum of the depositors action website
is enough to bring the truth and realisation of the anguish and heartbreak
brought to normal working people over this disgusting affair. Reckless abuse
of normal working peoples life-long savings by selfish, thoughtless
money-driven individuals - the real fat cats - has left hundreds questioning
why they saved for so many, many years and lived careful diligent lives only
to have their hard won sums stolen from them in a moment. Worse, they have
been kept largely in the dark as to what action is being taken on their
behalf, which bye and large seems to be callous disregard by HMG in
undertaking their constitutional obligation to properly represent the Isle of Man in its international
dealings. The Manx government is a domestic arrangement, a quirky legacy of
yore, it has no pressure to bring upon the Icelandic government to uphold the
Kaupthing guarantee which it inherited on nationalising the parent bank.
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12:38
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
The IOM is not part of the UK for strict constitutional
reasons. No Mp etc. The UK has no fiscal
responsibility for the Channel Islands and Isle of Man they are totally autonomous
but only have power on the Islands. They receive no financial help from UK and that is why they have
the right to make different tax laws etc. This is a very strict
constitutional divide. Wihtout this non-interference the Islands would not have their own
governments
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12:43
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
I am not sure if the following is totally correct and stand to be corrected -
Savers who make deposits with subsidiaries of British UK head-officed banks
in Isle
of Man, Jersey and Guernsey would most likely be secured by parent bank guarantees under UK regulatory
auspices-political pressure-reputation etc. The drawback is that the UK has used its licensing and
regulatory powers for British controlled banks in the UK to make them hand over to
HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC) the account details of their Isle of
Man-Jersey-Guernsey clients who are UK citizens resident,
ordinarily resident and domiciled in the UK. This is a broad net in
legal terms and being out of the UK does not necessarily set
you free. The three Islands have Tax Information Exchange agreements
with the UK in the context of the EU
Savings Directive for the taxation of interest bearing accounts. The Isle of Man signed a Tax Information
Sharing Agreement with the UK on 29th September 2008. The Island has a tax information exchange agreement
with Iceland also signed in Oslo for some reason on 30th October 2007 but Iceland is not in the UK or so far the EU. There is
no reference to a tax information exchange agreement with Iceland on the HMRC website. Thus
depositors can remain reasonably anonymous and free of tax but not
financially secure as we have seen. I suggest that for some, but not all
people, this is the reason why they chose an Icelandic bank’s offshore
subsidiary.
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12:43
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[Comment
From JM]
I believe the future of offshore banking on the Isle of Man will remain strong,
positive and atrractive. The Isle of Man is a very well regulated
jurisdiction with excellent ratings and a proven track record.
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12:49
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[Comment
From jonny]
I can't see how the future of offshore banking on the Isle of Man will remain strong if the
depositers of the banks their have no confidence in the banking industry.
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12:50
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
They don't want regulation. They want their money back. They also don't want
insecurity. Regulation is OK for the big players who use means such as trusts
and offshore insurance policies...people who can afford advice and lawyers to
look after them...When I was briefly a City trader in shares we always paid
off or tipped off the big boys first and then crashed the little guys to pay
the bills and I suspect that the really big KSF punters got the nod and wink
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12:51
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[Comment
From DD]
IoM depositors are expected to rely on teh depositors compensation scheme -
but this is full of gotchas:
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12:51
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[Comment
From DD]
It only covers £50K
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12:52
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[Comment
From DD]
It doesn't apply to companies, charities, trusts etc - and it is funded by
levies on other deposit takers so acknowledges that it may take many years to
get any money back.
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12:55
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[Comment
From Guest]
iom is sure to loose huge investments . surely nobody in his right mind would
would ho;d more than 50k from now on . sums exceeding that amounut will be
withdrawn fron othar banks
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12:57
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[Comment
From ANON]
Having watched The isle of Man banking fiasco on channel 4 last night and
just listened to the quite damning report just now on BBC Radio 4 ‘you and
yours’, manx politicians better start getting their act together. A totally
inadequate compensation scheme that may take years to pay out – get real. Any
outsider listening to that definitely won’t invest in this place now and I
can’t blame them. Talk of this economy being strong enough to weather the
recession is ludicrous and almost as ludicrous as the house prices over here.
The amount of money which is walking out of this place on a daily basis must
be incredible. Will the last one out please turn off the lights.
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12:57
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[Comment
From SN]
I think the collapse of Kaupthing raises significant questions about security
of investments in IOM. I have significant deposits with Kaupthing and other
investments which are held in a bond in IOM. I am waiting to see the response
by the provisional administrator and the IOM FSC before determining whether
to leave funds there. If deposits are not recovered in the short term I will
be moving my funds to a more secure jurisdiction.
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1:02
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
The Isle
of Man is not independent. The Isle of Man Government has no legal existence
though its departments do. It is a courtesy title like "Doctor.".
Isle of Man Government is a fiscally devolved entity of British Government
and another jurisdiction for which the UK is only responsible for
"good government" which means what it means when some politician in
London decides. Isle of Man Government is underpinned by
UK Sovereign Risk but Isle of Man Government has no power to incur a National
Debt because the UK will not let it. The Isle
of Man Government cannot pledge UK Sovereign Risk and thus effectively add to
UK National Debt. Thus it cannot guarantee deposits unless there is tacit
support from London and they have made clear so
far that they are not covering losses in the Island. The Island is too poor to secure
deposits using its own resources. Its tax base is very small. Short term
loans are have been talked about as possibility but most Island residents are workaday and
could not support a UK style plan. Isle of Man
Treasury is a Crown entity. The Financial Supervision Commission is not under
Isle
of Man political control but sits above it all.
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1:04
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[Comment
From Davec]
I am sorry but I think that the problem is not with the Isle of Man. The
problem lays with the Icelandic parent company. Like all parent companies, if
they go bust or stop trading so do their subsidiaries. Why pick on the Isle of Man whne everyone should be
pointing their fingers at Iceland.
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1:06
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
It is not just the Isle of Man there are now doubts over
the security of Ireland's bid to make banking
deposits 100% secure. Ireland is in the Euro Zone. If it
has to meet deposits in Sterling and other currencies, and
which is measured in trillions, then a saver is like a currency dealer in the
foreign exchange markets. Betting on both the strength of the Euro, the Irish
economy and Ireland's ability to acquire enough
foreign currency reserves for many years ahead.
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1:09
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[Comment
From cc]
Pick on the Isle of Man because the politicians here are pretending we have
as much security for deposits as we would have in the UK. That is blatantly rubbish.
This whole place is built on banks and estate agents and I'm sorry, I can't
feel sorry for any of them. I wouldn't be surprised if the RBS group gets
rationalised over here. I feel sorry for the ordinary bank workers.
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1:11
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Manxie is right and the Isle of Man and Channel Islands were forced by the UK
to sign information exchange agreements with the UK and other countries but
there is one with Iceland and so the Iceland Government keeps a track of its
own citizens which then opens the way for Icelandic banks to have
subsidiaries in the Isle of Man and Guernsey.
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1:15
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Part of the "Con" is that they emphasise the IOM is not part of the
UK and has a thousand year old
parliament..They forget to tell you it is still part of Britain and not
independent but that UK has no desire to control it internally just
diplomatic representation, defence etc. Some people think it is the poor
man's Switzerland and really, it is a
glorified offshore county council.
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1:19
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[Comment
From offshore resident]
nobody told me that a deposit held by a financial institution will not be
covered by the compensation scheme ,if that is not miselling what is . I was
always assured it was covered . its not only banks but all institution on the
island will have to back us up or thay will stand to loose clients , iom will
be finished once and for all if they fail us
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1:21
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
I stand to lose money in Kaupthing IOM, I am an IOM resident with a small
amount of savings wanting a secure and safe place to put my money. I am now
having to look at transferring the savings I have left from my other IOM
account to the UK, as the goverments
compensation scheme is worthless if there is a run on the banks over here.
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1:23
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
That being said, I think that the Isle of Man has done all it can in the
circumstances because it has no big money reserves, has no power outside of
the Island and come what may it did only advertise or make available the fact
that there is a limited compensation scheme. Even now I note that many people
use the word "guarantee"..Not the same thing! It was always
"buyer beware" and I cannot see why people threw their all like
£600,000 or whatever into a small bank no one can say the name of on the
lower floors of a low rise office block in a back street on an island in the
Irish Sea...unless there was some advantage and frankly most of what the
Island has is tax planning which some tax-men call "tax avoision".
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1:25
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[Comment
From Clarkie]
The majority of those left without the money they have worked their while
lives for - including my parents who have just moved to Australia - were
working in the parameters set for them by the UK authorities - and then those
same authorities panic and end up freezing assets that people desperately
need.
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1:27
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[Comment
From Guest]
one should remember nothing in live is guaranteed, any business must be
profitable to stay afloat. There are government backed bonds which are
guaranteed and a safe haven for people who cant risk the money being lost.
Would you be so quick to want to pay loans backed with someone who goes down
if they dont need the money.
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1:30
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Offshore Resident. You may indeed have been misinformed or not properly
advised. Who sold you on the deal? An adviser or a bank? There may be some
comeback as the lawyers have insurance. Frankly in the financial services on
the Island as in London and anywhere now it is
"spivs rules!" One reason why the Island had to import foreign
labour for menial tasks was because all the cleaners and carers became
"bankers". Old City rule: "Where there's a
tip there's a tap"....If it looks to be good to be true than it probably
isn't right and you were right first time. Manx residents have been gossiping
in the pubs cynically about the Finance Sector for 20 years but most Manxmen
are workaday not "suits".
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1:31
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[Comment
From Guest]
the compensation scheme specified the limit certainly so some people took
great risks when they invested more never the less something should be done
so as nobody loose thier savings
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1:39
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Guest. WHAT can be done? The IOM cannot do it unless the UK does a deal with Iceland and that is so sensitive
and keeping everybody in Government quiet. There's still a chance...Some
people think that the bank will be sold but they will only buy the loan books
and borrowers have been told to keep paying in. There's no goodwill to buy
and they surely rent the building.
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1:39
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[Comment
From Guest]
The IOM goverment is very keen to point out the £50,000 guarantee. This is
now worthless as if it is activated for KSF customers there is no money in
the pot at the moment so it will start from scratch. Although figures are
still unconfirmed they are going up and it looks like it may take up to 20
years to pay everyone off. Fact is if another bank goes belly up the
guarantee is would end up paying peoples great grand children off!!!
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1:40
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[Comment
From Steve]
This KFS debacle has really shook me / my family and the future of off shore
banking, i really hope for all our sakes that we can pull through unscathed
and live to tell the tale!!
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1:42
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Guest and whilst the fund begins to accumulate from the formal liquidation
you have to wait for the process to be wound up and only then will they start
to pay out if there's nothing left in the bank's kitty. No bank can pay in
more than £500,000 a year and how many banks are actually liable to pay into
the fund?
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1:43
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[Comment
From Angry Manxie]
If we all stick our fingers in our ears and chant 'la, la, la, la lound
enough hopefully it will all go away. Is this the advise that treasury has
been given so far?
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1:43
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[Comment
From David]
The Derbyshire Buiding Society and Kaupthing impressed upon all savers that
all deposits were covered not only by the IOM compensation scheme, which at
the time was derisory in any event, but also by parent company guarantee
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1:43
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
The IOM goverment need to get with the times. 50,000 protection might cut it
in the past but times have changed. All over the world goverments are fully
protecting customers. The IOM and off shore business will loose out unless
they do the same
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1:45
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
Banking is the biggest employer on the IOM, if they loose it then the money
that most of the residents seem concerned about spending on the new bus
station will end up being used for unemployment beneifit!!
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1:45
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Gordon Brown might equally be saying that on no account should UK taxpayers funds be used to
bail out investors in "tax efficient" offshore bank accounts or the
Isle
of Man as the strict constitutional structure is that we don't pay them and
they don't pay us apart from a Customs and Excise Agreement. No taxation
without representation. We and they have no political seat in each other's
democracy.
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1:47
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[Comment
From David]
Monkeyface- you are aware that prior to this fiasco the compensation limit
was much lower 13,500 if I am not mistaken!
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1:47
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[Comment
From skintagainnow]
I note from a previous comment that even manx residents regard off shore
savers as tax evaders. not so we all still taxes on savings, the UK goverment should step in to
protect all its citizens IoM / Channel Isle / and ex pats - thsi is teh only
forward to keep some of these economies viable.
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1:49
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[Comment
From worried saver]
Unless the IOM now offers 100% savings guarantee I will move any remaining
funds that have not been "lost" ( £960K KSF.IOM) to the mainland , even though this is virtually
impossible as an expat with no address in the UK mainland . The UK may not have a 100%
guarantee but I feel they have more clout in a problem such as this . I think
the whole offshore banking industry is at risk ..prink your ears up Guernsey !
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1:51
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
Yes i am aware of that, but i am also aware that in this current climate if
off shore centres dont offer the same protection as the rest of the world
they will loose. Nobody is taking a risk at the moment and that needs to be
recognised.
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1:51
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Monkey Face. Treasury Secretary Allan Bell explained that the IOM could not
afford to put in too many security arrangements as that would drive away the
Finance Sector...Well!...We nearly lost the Finance Sector two or three years
ago over the tax information exchange agreements and EU Savings Directive but
they kept them here by making certain companies and banks tax free on profits
not issued in the Island and put in a 10% tax on financial institutions. They
know that they simply cannot afford to put any more burdens on the banks by
way of depositors security and this offshore banking scene is a skittery as a
Manx cat chased by a wild dog-pack...Always has been!
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1:53
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[Comment
From skintagainnow]
Many of the people who have large sums tied up in administration can not open
mainland accounts no UK address ex living / working
aboard - hence have to go down the off-shore route. I'm one of those
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1:54
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Barring a miracle or if it is possible for Isle of Man Government to raise
some form of short-term loan which I doubts as it has a problem with the UK
over having a National Debt there is no chance of 100% back money guarantee
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1:55
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
The money is draining away from off shore accounts, maybe not in runs on the
banks, but it is none the less. This whole fiasco has exposed a regime ill
prepared to deal with anything of this magnitude.
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1:59
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[Comment
From Guest]
Manxie - your comments are neither clever or helpful. I personally remember
the late 70's and don't want to go back to spuds and herring. Its up to the
IOM Government to fight for the future of our economy and that means dealing
with this situation properly not going to ground and hoping it willl all blow
over. All people are asking for are assurances and action. i don't think that
is too much to ask
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2:01
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[Comment
From Kumar]
First of all I would like to point out that not all UK depositors are or
indeed even can be tax evaders as we have to sign a declaration that we
authrorise the deposit taking bank to disclose the account information to the
UK tax authorities.I only put my money there because there was no tax
deduction at source and I elected to make the interest declaration myself on
my tax return.
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2:01
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[Comment
From skintagainnow]
With anti money laundry laws the way they are, residence - as per council
lists - buildings in the process of conversion and are classed as commercial
/ agricultural / plot of land for new build - do not qualify for residence
purposes, therefore no savings bank accounts can be held. Main governments
must back up the crown dependencies in these cases.. with respect to mainland
banks - most did the Icelandic banks bought them out.
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2:03
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[Comment
From Kumar]
important things to point out is if you see the official annual ccounts filed
by KSFIOM filed with the government ,a massive amount of money was
transfeered out to ICELAND(over 56% of the banks total assets).what was the
IOM regulator doing?
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2:05
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar is right that is EU Savings Directive in operation for interest bearing
accounts but then there are non-interest accounts where the parent bank in London has to inform HM Revenue
and Customs so I am told of any UK citizens, resident,
ordinarily resident or domiciled even if working outside the UK who have accounts with
their offshore subsidiaries.
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2:06
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[Comment
From skintagainnow]
we are all paying taxes to the UK government in the form of full disclosure
or deductions at source -- this has to be realised - we are TAX dodgers /
evaders and we are paying UK government taxes therefore UK government should
be looking after our interests as well as yours the Manx residents
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2:06
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
The FSC was grossly negligent by lending the 56% to Iceland. There are a lot of cross
interests between members of the IOM goverment and FSC and KAupthing IOM,
these are of great concern to depositors
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2:14
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar. Crown Dependency Status and the fact that they never promised you in
the first place. The Isle of Man is underpinned by UK Sovereign Risk which is
OK for Gordon Brown to use when bailing out UK residents but the Isle of Man
would be in debt ie a National Debt if it took on unlimited bail-out and that
would be pledging the UK Sovereign Risk on the UK National Debt which the
Isle of Man has no constitutional power to do. Short term loans have been
mooted I recall. The UK does not allow the Island to have a National Debet as
such because it has no elected representation in the Island's legislature ie
no taxation without representation and you cannot pledge UK taxpayers' money
if they are not represented politically.
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2:14
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[Comment
From Kumar]
The least the FSC can do to correct this neglect is to raise the bar to the
international level,give protection to the depositors,then follow vigerously
in seeking redress from the govt of Iceland and thus save the reputation of
the IOM.
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2:14
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[Comment
From skintagainnow]
apologies folks - many of us in fact most have had very little sleep over the
last few days, brain tends to be on overdrive but the rest falls to catch up.
If the banking sector leaves the Island - where does that leave the
Islanders - it's a question that must be paramount in all minds. Central
government receives these taxes and does nothing in return??
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2:17
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Skinagainnow. You are not quite right. The portion you pay to UK on full disclosure may
qualify but those who do not disclose pay a tax to the Isle of Man which then keeps a portion
and then passes the rest on. The actual tax is an EU tax by agreement. The Island is not in the EU. The Isle
of Man Government has the competence as they call it for matters within its
jurisdiction. If you are a UK resident or taxpaper then
see an MP. The Island has no power in this context. Does your MP live near you? The UK is representing the IOM
overses with Iceland...But they have no fiscal
duty to you if you are an Isle of Man non-UK resident. Just a duty to the
isle of Man. I am explaining it as they
see it between the two jurisdictions unless this monster changes the rules of
course!
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2:17
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
The depositors at KFS are angry because most of us have lost everything. This
is not because of poor judgment, merely that we became the casualties after
being caught up in the international fiasco between UK and Iceland. As such we dont want to
just be marked up as collateral damage. We just want someone to take
responsability and say we will be treated as fairly as others. At the moment
we feel like vobody wants to take responsibility, somebody is responsinle and
it isnt us!!!
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2:17
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[Comment
From Binley]
I originally opened an account as a teenager with the Derbyshire building
society - my local area building soc - wasn't allowed to keep an onshore
savings account when I went to work abroad some years later, and moved it to
Derbyshire IOM. Held an account with Derbys onshore + offshore for more
than 20 years, before Derbys IOM was taken over last Dec by KSF. Not a tax
dodger, therefore, and not chasing little bits of extra interest in foreign
banks. Just needed a safe home for hard earned future provision, and not sure
why it was too much to ask that a bank based and regulated in IOM might be
able to provide one.
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2:17
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar TGhe Isle of Man admits that if there are any more impositions on the
Finance Sector it will push a botton, move all the funds and go somewhere but
don't ask me where!
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2:21
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[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
I tgink that the choice is not theres to make, they have to have money to
take elsewhere, that is going, day by day, hour by hour, very orderly, but
still going. Wake up!!!!
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2:21
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Binley in all other respects you have been bang on right you were unlucky
that you had a Viking raid did you know that the Manx are of Viking descent
some of them and that its parliament is the oldest surviving Viking
parliament? No..You were done as you chose a British name that looked safe
but they moved the goalposts
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2:22
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar. I am sure that it is but it is so limited in its terms of competence
ie what iit actually has the power to do even its agreement with Iceland was
done by the UK giving it licence to act on its own for that purpose
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2:22
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[Comment
From Guest]
The U.K. goverments actions can also
be seen to have brought 2 islands to its knees, Iceland and the IOM
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2:23
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar Please read early posts. IOM is not part of the UK really this is where people
are so. so wrong. It is not part of UK it is a part of the
political state of Britain k nown as the British Islands not British Isles. You
can't get round it there is no fiscal obligation between the UK and IOM other than Customs
and Excise.
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2:25
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[Comment
From Windy Corner]
Does anyone know if a possible take over of KSF IOM is on the agenda at all,
I heard that it could be a possibility ,would this not be the best course of
action for the liquidators to pursue, Santander, ING perhaps!!
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2:27
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar the IOm has not got the money to lend to Iceland and it is not a sovereign
nation. This is why I write about National Debt. The sovereignty of the Isle of Man was vested in the Crown in
1760 and UK is the sovereign power but
has long since devolved autonomous self-government to the Isle of Man
Government but for internal use only.
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2:29
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
KSF IOM Ltd may be sold by the eventual liquidators but the provisional
liquidator last I looked was talking in terms of them buying the loan book.
Borrowers are still asked to pay in. There is no goodwill and the office is
probably leased.
|
|
2:30
|
[Comment
From iffshore guest]
to windy corner lloyds was bidding for a take over but heard nothing yet .
yes i think that will sort our troubles
|
|
2:33
|
[Comment
From Another IOM Resident]
I had a credit agreement with KSF, the book I was on has now been bought by
Close premium finance (Close Bros)
|
|
2:33
|
[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
The IOM takes deposits from all over the world, if it isnt prepared to deal
with these matters like other countries then it will loose out.
|
|
2:33
|
[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
People there need to stop burrying their heads in the sand with this im
alright Jack attitude and face up to the fact taht they wouldnt be able to
put up a new bus station without the money earned from their banking sector.
|
|
2:35
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar Sorry. Trying too hard! Don't know about that. It's a matter of debt
again I think something was said in the emergency Tynwald debate about loans
and it may be in the new legislation on IOM Govt website but I have not got
round to reading it properly myself it is there in Adobe format and David
Cannan was asking questions about loans in Tynwald. I think that a lot more
has to come out yet when we see the next sitting of Tynwald on what..October
24th..I think they all need time to get their beans in a row and frankly
nothing can shift without going through Tynwald and being voted on and an
Order made to amend legislation.
|
|
2:37
|
[Comment
From Windy Corner]
I agree a take over is best, of what I can understand, the actual Kaupthing
"business" as it was, was doing well with a reputable name and A1
STATUS and seemed to be sucked in to the whole situation, so it cant be that
bad a buy for some financial giant after all
|
|
2:38
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar the 500 million is private not public. IOM Govt does not own or control
the deposits it is not theirs to say. National Debt is public debt. I am not
sure if the FSC was in a position to stop anything but you know the FSC is
not part of the Island's political establishment. The Chief Minister and the Ministers have
no say. FSC is above it all.
|
|
2:38
|
[Comment
From NEIL]
Here on the Isle of Man many people live very insular lives. Some of the
oldest Manx people have never been to the other end of the island, much less
“over” as we say. The government has never been proactive. Every
administration has sat back and waited to see what happens in other
jurisdictions before they will take any action. i.e. financial regulation,
depositors compensation, breathalyzer, speed limits, smoking in pub places,
water treatment, waste disposal, ad infinitum. Most of the MHKs & MLCs
are old Manxmen. Some Manx people have doubts about the whole finance sector
and just about anything that threatens the Manx way of life. Of course they
are glad of the bounty the financial sector has brought to the island.
However the influx of “comeovers” in recent years has been unwelcome by some.
The government is subservient to the will of Westminster, and the EU although claiming
to be proudly independent. The only people who have any power, and may listen
to the plight of KSF depositors is the UK Government and the wider world.
It’s a nice place to live, in retirement, but don’t keep your money here.
Before offshore banking was introduced the population was falling like a
stone, the only jobs were fishing and farming. Now there’s no fish and
farming is in decline as the Manx gov subsidies are removed, to comply with
EU rules, we’re not even in the EU. The reply to any criticism of this island
is usually “the ferry leaves every morning” the financial services might just
catch it.
|
|
2:42
|
[Comment
From kumar]
Hi Neil,you have made a good and fair summary
|
|
2:42
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Neil. That was what I was just going to write! A lot of Manx would glad to
see the Finance Sector leave. Its not realistic as expectations are too high
but if it must be it must be...As the old Manxmen say "We've seen 'em
come We see 'em go!"..One reason why the Island has been interfered with so
much by outside is because the Banks make it a target!..Like living next door
to Liverpool Docks in World War Two
|
|
2:43
|
[Comment
From skintagainnow]
The Island needs the banking sector to survive and prosper, the banking
sector needs assurances that deposits are safe, somehow the Island has to
work with central government to ensure this happens after they act as tax
collector for central government - had they been keeping all of these taxes
in the Islands coffers then compensation would have been the Islands duty -
ITS not it's central government. We need your help too ensure we are
compensated as UK citizens and the Island needs the banking sector to
survive.
|
|
2:43
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar it is! It is! It is the only hope!
|
|
2:43
|
[Comment
From japan]
I do not want any of my money, accounts, banks to be in the IoM. After some
time in Japan, Barclays moved my account
to the IoM. I transferred the money to the Derbyshire. I want to bank in the UK. I never trusted tiny
"offshore" sites, but I've no choice!
|
|
2:44
|
[Comment
From kumar]
I urge all depositors to make strong representations to the UK govt
|
|
2:45
|
[Comment
From Conkers]
I only hope that the KSF IoM is bought out or that the UK negotiate the same deal for
IoM as they do for themselves. It's politics and business, but not the law,
that will help us all here.
|
|
2:45
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Jaon. Pity you couldn't stay with Barclays! What a mess!
|
|
2:47
|
[Comment
From japan]
Remember, the banks used to treat us badly. The building socs were much
nicer.
|
|
2:48
|
[Comment
From japan]
Concerning KSF, I want the IoM "government" to request assistance
from the UK.
|
|
2:48
|
[Comment
From kumar]
Do you know that if depositors lose money with KSF IOM ,it would be the ONLY
govt in the whole world to alow it /
|
|
2:49
|
[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
Im shocked that some IOM residents want to loose the banking system. I fear
they dont really understand how dependant their economy is on it. Maybe when
the meals on wheels van fails to turn up and the onec a day bus service goes
down to once a week they will wake up. What about all the residents employed
in the system, shrinking economy and rising unemployment is obviouly not
going to help anyone. Lets see who is the first to approach the UK goverment for help and ally
its self if that happens
|
|
2:49
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Skintagainow. What taxes? IOM taxes are its own. It is not holding any UK taxes other than under EU
Savings Directive and Customs and Excise. One cannot ascribe tax held by IOM
Government that was never actually assessed and billed for. Remember the Isle
of Man Government is the Centra Government for the Isle of Man. The UK Govt
is not the Isle of Man's Government. No jurisdiction. Even a UK police force has to ask permission
or be invited to come to the Isle of Man
|
|
2:54
|
[Comment
From Sue]
It's not only the banking system, its an entire setup to found and support
offshore companies, alongside with offshore banking and tax advantages. If
the island is not capable to support its customers in situations like this
one where they have made a hell lot of money from that kind uf business, it
shouldn't have started this in first place.
|
|
2:55
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Monkey Face Oh think that they do. I recall the Island in 1986 when it was up for
sale just about everything and 2000 on the dole that were here or not left.
But there is and never was and never will be much that they can do! Lots of
cheap houses mind you like it used to be. in 1986 they could not give property
away. It changed and went mad in 1987. The Isle of Man has been bust before and
even sold the railway tracks but they did not go to the UK and the UK has no fiscal duties
towards the Isle of Man the most they offered was to build a maximum
security prison and make a few jobs. In the 1960s the unions wanted to join
the UK but the Manx are like the
Orangemen "No surrender!"
|
|
3:03
|
[Comment
From AC]
Let's look at the positve side. Clearly there are millions of people who will
be reconsidering where they bank their savings. If the Isle of Man was innovative enough to
address all these concers including a 100% guarantee, plus all the offshore
benefits I am sure it would prove to be successful.
|
|
3:03
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sue No one ever said that it was anything other than what is . "What you
see is what you get"...if you look! ...It is well known that a Finance
Sector hit will make the economy back-peddle. I will let you into a secret!
The Treasury is a Crown entity in constitutional terms. They are advised by London. When all this Finance
Sector started and all these information exchange ageements came in the Island was advised to spend as
much on the new infrastructure as possible as the good days would not last
for ever. That is why so much has been done. It is also the worst kept
secret.
|
|
3:04
|
[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
The answer to this debate is off shore accounts are about as safe as 100 year
old dynamite, i for one will be burning all of my Bergerac box sets!!!!
|
|
3:04
|
[Comment
From Windy Corner]
Thanks for all your comments and answers. I hope God is with us all at this
dark time, keep positive and good luck to all the unfortunates, me included.
Sink another Prozac!! bye.
|
|
3:06
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
AC We alredady know that the Isle of Man is not able to give binding
guarantees it is a very small place of officially 80,000 people. Not all are
taxpayers. How can it guarantee billions when it only has about half a
billion a year? It is only a small economy.
|
|
3:07
|
[Comment
From Sue]
It shouldn't have made promises to investors being well aware not being able
to ever uphold them.
|
|
3:08
|
[Comment
From Alsoscrood]
Well, it's clear that many of the Isle of Man residents are fairly
philosphical about whether the financial sector goes or stays. This debate
shouldn't be happening here, among the general "I'm okay Jack"
populace of the island. Their comments do not endear the island to those of
us and we're all getting pretty angry. I would strongly recommend that we who
cannot benefit from this discussion withdraw and leave them to it, while we
continue our efforts where they might achieve something. Very
disappointing...
|
|
3:08
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Monkeyface. Penny dropped! It was ever thus. That is why they are here it is so
easy compared to London to set up a bank. You need
a type of a licence but there is much less transparency regarding public
information and reporting such as the UK banks have to comply with
|
|
3:09
|
[Comment
From AC]
I also see no reason why the Isle of Man should not become more
autonomous and set its own interest rates. Regarding the guarantees IOM
Resident, the whole point is to not let the banks here get in to that sort of
mess. There are only a few banks here - all incorated as offshore divisions, so
surely it would not take much for the financial regulators here to versee
them properly. Again - these are all positives that the IOM could capitalise
on if it managed to organise itself accordingly.
|
|
3:09
|
[Comment
From Monkeyface3604]
I think you are right there Kiwi, good luck to all IOM residents, your in
this as much as us, although many of you are to set in your ways to see it.
Dont worry im sure by tomorrow you will be able to debate about the new bus
station again and praise the new world conker champion!!!
|
|
3:12
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sport. One hopes not. Some people live here and this is a debate about the
offshore future. What did you expect. A priest to confess or an all powerful
deity? You ask the questions/comments get the honest replies from the horses
mouth. There is more commons ense here than in all of Tynwald..well? What
ever you look for by way of recompense it will not come about here!
|
|
3:14
|
[Comment
From Sue]
Wait and see until everyone moves its savings from the IOM, banks and
offshore administration offices close down. The island will simply loose its
reputation as an offshore place. What will remain left is a nice annual
motorcycling, a hell lot of jobless people and that's about it.
|
|
3:16
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Kumar The Isle of Man would have to go independent which it is not. Think
County Council. If independent maybe it could do these things but it
struggles to cope with County Council issues believe me. The Finance Sector
is seen like an alien by some..I hope no one is laughing but it is an Island website on an Island issue and KSF people have
their own dedicated site. The UK would have to allow the IOM
to be independent etc.
|
|
3:16
|
[Comment
From AC]
Sue - exactly! To many IOM=Iceland - they are both islands
after all. IOM has a choice now - take advantage and prosper, or do nothing
and fail. The TT and fishing will not keep the island going for very long -
not in the style it has been accustomed to anyway.
|
|
3:18
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Everyone It was never designed to last forever. In the late 1990s those that
knew gave it about 20 years. the Finance Sector Imean so we are about almost
two thirds through. This is why there has been so much infrastructure and
also diversification
|
|
3:19
|
[Comment
From Sue]
It's now or never. If this issue is not being resolved now, i.e. in a speedy
manner, it will become forgotten, and there will be no other option for the
IOM to go back to where they came from
|
|
3:19
|
[Comment
From Conkers]
Maybe if we replaced the FSC IoM. with the more proactive and responsible
Parish Council from the Vicar of Dibley, we'd get somewhere.
|
|
3:22
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Conkers there is a resemblance and about as much intellectuality. A Vicar,
old dear, batty old fool a squire. idiot son. daft girl Yes that's them
alright!
|
|
3:22
|
[Comment
From Rory MacKay]
The complete lack of any depositors' insurance in the Channel Islands means that Jersey and Guernsey may well be finished as
banking centres. If the Isle of Man may be the net beneficiary
of the Channel Islands' woes if
|
|
3:23
|
[Comment
From AC]
Sue - absolutely once again. I don't see the island striking oil off the
coast anytime soon. Tynwald should be debating what top do now - not wait
until there is 50% unemployment and alot of very unhappy residents. I wonder
is the government have even thought about these things?
|
|
3:23
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Folks and world! Whatever will be will be! Nothing much anyone can do unless
the UK changes the whole set up
and pulls the rabbits out of a hat. It is part of Manx awareness that
everytime throughout history they put their head over the parapet they get it
shot off so they stay quiet and balance between the forces that surround them
and if the banks go then they go!
|
|
3:25
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
AC Insular people on an Island with a Govt known as "The Insular
Government" by formal address? Wow! This is not the place. The topic is
offshore future. You say there isn't one. We say We know! What can we or you
do about it! This is a website of a small newspaper not the United Nations
|
|
3:27
|
[Comment
From Sue]
I want the UK to represent my interest. I
don't need any statements made by Mr. Brown suggesting that every EU country
should follow his example. He should rectify the mistake th UK made in first place and
then teach others
|
|
3:31
|
[Comment
From J - UK]
The IoM Gov has already announced that it is working with UK to recover the assets or
get the guarantee honoured by Iceland. Those on the island who
are aware know that the finance sector has and will employ thousands of
people. I have confidence that sense will prevail as, ironically, it is the
freezing of the Icelandic bank's assets by the UK Government that has created
the problem initially (by accident).
|
|
3:31
|
[Comment
From Martin Porter]
I am a UK Expat IT consultant and I had both my personal account and 2
coporate accounts in Kaupting IOM. I have now lost no only my life savings
but also any way of paying my current bills and onbigations and all of my
investments will also be in danger . As I am freelance and not working I am
basically bankrupt
|
|
3:32
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Ken yes. They all have to hold a certain amount of Sterling balances in order to issue
their own notes. The natural note for the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands is the Bank of England
note. However, the Bank of England sells the notes at face
value ie £10 buys a ten pound note. The money is then held in London which is how the Bank of
England is financed. ie all the banks in UK or who want Sterling do this. It is called
Seignorage. The IOM prints its own notes issued by Isle of Man Bank part of
RBS. So it only costs pennies not pounds to make a note. In order to make the
money worth something the IOM buys British Govt securities and they earn
interest in London and so IOM money is foreign
but backed by IOM Govt holdings in London. Jersey is similar and Guernsey I think but they I believe
have a larger Sterling cash income than the IOM due to tourists and may not need to buy so
many securities providing they hold the Sterling in the Islands
|
|
3:33
|
[Comment
From topcat]
partsof The recent increase in depositor protection to £50,000, which has
recently been announced, gained the IOM much needed good PR over the weekend
and is extremely welcome, but I believe that more needs to be done. I would
be grateful for your confirmation that personal pension schemes are covered
or are under consideration to be covered by the Depositor Compensation Scheme
(DCS), as well as small businesses. It seems to us that those who are prudent
enough to save for their future retirement from their own personal funds so
as not to become a burden on the State in due course should receive that same
level of protection as individuals. Similarly small businesses that can ill
afford to lose funds deposited for the very best intentions in banks
regulated by the Isle of Man Government’s FSC and secured by processes
managed by Treasury should also benefit from compensation. This would bring
the IOM into line with the UK where the Chancellor has
maintained that no investor shall lose out, even for funds involving
“passported” Icelandic banks. I understand that The Channel Isles are
experiencing an outflow of funds because of the lack of investor protection
available, we do not want the same to occur to the IOM. In fact it might be
possible, by some strong affirmations of providing 100% protection security
for Depositors (to included small businesses as well as pensions and public
monies) on the IOM, to enable the IOM to outflank and leapfrog the Channel
Islands entirely as
|
|
3:34
|
[Comment
From topcat]
. I believe that such a bold action could rescue the industry as well as
providing the same level of protection as the UK. The UK really is not interested in
the IOM’s financial industry other than to curtail its activities. I think
that such a move would be worth the cost of up to an extra 2p on the top rate
of Manx tax!
|
|
3:36
|
[Comment
From Sue]
Depositors protection amounting GBP 50000 is good to look at but may take
years to be ulimately fulfilled, not considering those deposit accounts
having lots more in them than 50K GBP
|
|
3:36
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Topcat Onde again it is a matter of exposure and National Debt.
Constitutionally they cannot do it as at present set up and really the Island is too poor. No I don't
know why they excluded companies but here that there is something bigger than
toxic debt and CDOs in the pipeline.
|
|
3:38
|
[Comment
From Chris]
To Manxo - we know that now, obviously. And frankly, I think most people will
be moving their money onshore to the UK - decimating the Manx
banking industry.
|
|
3:38
|
[Comment
From Sue]
We, being victims of this crash want to be heard and someone out there to
represent our interests. We don' t want anything more that what we have been
assured
|
|
3:38
|
[Comment
From IsleofMuppets]
The issue is that the Tynwald has been slow to communicate in a crisis, not
the fact of the crisis itself, but I suspect that things are happening behind
the scenes that they can be praised for at resolution
|
|
3:38
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sue it is not an arguing venue. It is about offshore future. We can't do
anything. It is a matter for Tynwald and the UK if they can get the
Icelandic Govt to pay up.
|
|
3:39
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sue yes \Offshore banking but what on earth can we do on this forum?
|
|
3:39
|
[Comment
From IsleofMuppets]
IoM looked lovely on the Channel 4 report, i will come over for the 2009
World Conkers Championship
|
|
3:40
|
[Comment
From topcat]
I have to say I am surprised at the complacency of some contributors.
|
|
3:40
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sue Onyly the UK can help within the
constitutional set up. Un less they make a change for special reasons.
Tynwald is the only body that can do anything here just like House of Commons
|
|
3:40
|
[Comment
From Sue]
But if its a wakeup call for those responsible for this crisis that we have
achieved more than we expected
|
|
3:40
|
[Comment
From Sue]
but at least what we deserve.
|
|
3:40
|
[Comment
From topcat]
My last contained most of the text of a letter we sent to Allan Bell on
Monday.
|
|
3:41
|
[Comment
From IsleofMuppets]
i think that the uk and other governments would
consider it a plus if offshore banking was ended as a result of this crisis
|
|
3:41
|
[Comment
From Sue]
I hope the UK does not fail a second time
|
|
3:42
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Topcat No complacencey. Its been on the cards since about 2000. This is not
the South East Manx were not brought up to think like city commuters. The
main stories are conkers, and lost dogs always been the same Drop the bomb it
is the same. Stray cats. dogs, bus stops
|
|
3:43
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
IOM Muppets. Ta! You are so right. Secretly there is a love hate beteen UK
and IOM and they have to be on our side as we are a Crown Dependency but the
site of an IOM bank going down must have made them crack open the claret.
Like yes Minister
|
|
3:43
|
[Comment
From IsleofMuppets]
good luck everyone, i'm off on a date
|
|
3:44
|
[Comment
From topcat]
I beleive that the IOM as a future Offshore Internatioanl Banking centre is
very much in jeopardy. The question is does this matter, and if it does what
should be done now to retrieve the situation?
|
|
3:44
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sie Not sure what you mean Island not in EU
|
|
3:44
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Sue . My typos are getting worse! You mean we will all be in the EU by proxy.
You are right!
|
|
3:47
|
[Comment
From skintagainnow]
Three legged cynic I'm guessing you are speaking for the small portion of the
Islands residents who would love to
see a "return" of the old ways and now revel in the fact you can
stand in the pub and beat your chest and proudly exclaim I was right. Ok have
your day/s of fun - but start saving now and keep it under your bed and then
you may have some quality of life when you retire. As many of us that placed
our life's savings on the Island because we can no longer obtain mainland
accounts are penniless. May I thank most of you for your positive thoughts
and comments and those that realise this directly affects their and their
children's futures
|
|
3:49
|
[Comment
From Ken]
The latest events in Iceland shows how easy it is to
cripple a country without using force, maybe the next step would be to send
troops in. It begs the question over protectorate states, would it include
financial attacks aswell as military attacks?
|
|
3:49
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Yes get into perspective. There are plenty of more technical financial things
done here. Savers are not the only customers but they probably provide the most
by way not of taxes but back office and phone banks etc. These are the
soldiers who stand to fall
|
|
3:52
|
[Comment
From Anon]
Martin Porter - it might not come across now but unlike Iceland the Manx are honorable
people and this whole situation puts us in a terrible light. We have no doubt
that the outcome of this may not be as bad as people suspect but i wish our
government were telling you this rather than a big "No
commenT"0"
|
|
3:53
|
[Comment
From not a Bayard]
Hi Manxo The KSF IOM Bank was AAA rated which was why UK councils were
allowed to invest in that Bank also the deposits were guaranteed 100% by the
parent Kaupthing hf in Iceland plus the FSC compensation.....I pay tax thank
you
|
|
3:55
|
[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Bayard According to what I heard from an official source on Manx Radio it was
not AAA rated here? Is this right. The UK bansk caught a lot out
|
|
3:57
|
[Comment
From Andrew Durgan]
If it gets to a legal tussle with Iceland government to retrieve
money on behalf of KSF depositors.What
chance do we stand of getting the money back?
|
|
3:57
|
[Comment
From not a Bayard]
Kaupthing and all iceland banks and indeed iceland govt itself were downgraded
by Moody and Fitch either last week or the week previously
|
|
3:57
|
[Comment
From Guest]
I am a manx resident I have deposits in HBOS on the island, So the U.K
bailout has saved me so if you save with one of the big banks on the island
you are safe so there is no reason for deposits to leave the iIOM.
|
|
3:58
|
[Comment
From anon 20]
Using a british bank makes no difference. I have an account with british bank
in jersey but there is still no compensation cover, It is a seperate company.
not just a branch of UK bank.
|
|
3:59
|
[Comment
From Sue]
For ours and the islands sake I hope that Tynwald will not allow anyone to
step on its feet and stand behind its commitments towards the people who
brought prosper and jobs to the IOM.
|
|
4:00
|
[Comment
From skintagainnow]
How many still fail to understand due diligence was used by all prior to
opening account, and the most important fact no formal UK address means no UK
savings accounts this applies throughout Europe. It's a mess for ex-pats and
people moving in and out of the UK and Europe all we want is for
governments to see the mess and heartache they have created.
|
|
4:00
|
[Comment
From Andrew Durgan]
It is covered upto 50,000 pounds on IOM but FSC on their website say they
will take years to get money back
|
|
4:01
|
[Comment
From Ken]
guest, isnt HBOS now 70% Government owned? if it goes under do you think the UK will look after the monies
in the IOM?
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4:01
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[Comment
From IOM Resident]
Anon 20 True! and the IOM would have covered you a biu but it is not likely
that a Barclays or Natwest subsidiary would go down like a KSGFwithout UK
being involved if only by telling them to tidy it up and pay out. However,
you might be on the list sent to the UK taxman so mI am told they
now do
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4:04
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[Comment
From uk]
i'm amazed that after the sib fiasco that the iom govt did noy have safegards
in place and allowed depositors money to be shifted out of the iom leaving
depisitors again exposed . the future of the iom as an offshor haven has to
be in serious doubt unless the govt do cover the losses
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